Covert Narcissists

We are generally well aware of what overt narcissists look like, but narcissism can manifest in different ways, including the covert or vulnerable narcissist.  This episode touches on the traits of the covert narcissist, and then discusses what to do when it becomes clear that you are dealing with this type of narcissistic person.

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This is unapologetic parenting podcast dedicated to candidly and unapologetically discussing parenting, divorce and co parenting. We take on the topics most people don't want to talk about and offer support and solutions to help you be a better parent, co parent and human being. Now without further ado, let's get right to it. Welcome back to unapologetic parenting. I'm your host Carl Knickerbocker. And in this episode, we're talking about covert narcissism. So typically, when we think of the narcissist, we think of the very flamboyant grandiose out there showing everybody how great they are a dominant personality, who can then be very belittling and cruel and sadistic, that sort of image the, that Uber narcissist who is out there on the extroverted scale, and showing everybody how great they are. That's the typical, more mainstream common image of narcissism. covert narcissism, on the other hand, also known as vulnerable narcissism is when you're dealing with somebody who is new tends to be very shy, and they tend to be very reclusive. And they tend to be very, very emotionally fragile and sensitive to criticism, they tend to be very stressed and worried and angry about all sorts of things. And they're constantly comparing themselves and judging them selves against what others have, in terms of possessions, relationship, status, relationship, quality, happiness, whatever have you. So some of the big signs just real quickly, for somebody who is going to be on that covert or vulnerable narcissist scale, they tend to have this outward sense of inferiority. So later on, we'll talk about how they tend to be very, very grandiose secretly, they think that they are just the most enlightened spiritual wise, above everybody else being. And they think that because they're so special, they tend to be reserved and avoid people because all these other people are beneath them. But part of the picture as well is that they have this outward sense of inferiority. And so they tend to present themselves in terms of self doubt, and uncertainty, they tend to defer choices and decisions on to other people, they tend to delegate as many important choices as they can, because they have such an intense fear of ever making a mistake. They don't want to be caught in any situation, where they are, you know, legitimately pointed out, hey, this was wrong, or this was a mistake, this was an incorrect choice. So instead of putting themselves into the risk, dynamic of being found wrong, they just tend to defer everything else off to others. They are constantly constantly, constantly constantly comparing themselves to friends and family and co workers. And that is a paralyzing thing for them in terms of making decisions because they don't want to be wrong, and then appear to be less than these people that they are trying to compare themselves to. They tend to be very emotionally fragile and hypersensitive, this is a second factor. They have a very unstable self esteem. And they will typically present as being very thin skinned and emotionally fragile hypersensitive, they are very easily stressed out. And if they get criticized at work, or at home or in relationship, if you have any kind of criticism toward their parenting or how they do things, they tend to respond with a very extreme emotional reaction. And that emotional reaction is designed, I believe, to make you really second guess, ever criticizing them again, because every time you give them a criticism, anytime you say, you know, hey, maybe let's try this, or, you know, I have concerns over this, or give them any kind of negative feedback or ask for any sort of change. That's typically when you get hammered with either than being very angry and belligerent, or you get hammered with them becoming completely despondent, maybe even threatening to harm themselves or kill themselves. And so you get trained to just shut your mouth with any kind of criticism because you know that what you're going to get back is going to be extreme. It's going to be some sort of extreme emotional reaction that comes into trait three, which is they tend to be very angry, and they can be highly stressed. They're just constantly stressed out and anxious about everything. The world is a scary, scary, scary place and there's concerned about this and their fear. About that, and they're scared about what's hiding around the corner or what's in the water, and they just constantly are focusing on all of these stressful negative things, and ends up leading them to become just very angry and resentful, and aggressive toward any kind of negative feedback toward them. So they're fearful and stressed about all this stuff. And then you give them some sort of negative comment or feedback about themselves, and boom, all this other stuff can come out as well. And, again, a lot of times it will lead to them having this extreme emotional reaction, and maybe even threats of self injury. They tend to be very, very, very envious of others. And I think one of the ways that we see this most often is just constant envy of what other people have in terms of either physical appearance and possessions. Or very frequently nowadays, I think it's in terms of parenting, and spiritual qualities. So there is this constant envy of Oh, these people who are such better parents are these people who have, you know, everything figured out with their peaceful spiritual children, or they're on their self healing, self love, self enlightenment path, and they're constantly comparing themselves to these idealized versions. And that's where I think, you know, a lot of times we receive this on social media, we have all of these images out there of just, you know, the perfect little family and the perfect way of saying things and the enlightened way of raising your children and the enlightened ways of do healing yourself and trauma and all this other stuff. And that is just vulnerable narcissist, the bait, they love that stuff, because it gives them these idealized unattainable things to be envious of, and then constantly trying to achieve but then that reinforces their inferiority, and the things they're anxious about and fearful about because it can never attain these impossible things. And just, it just feeds into the cycle of who and what they are. So another factor is aimlessness, they tend to not have any self direction, a lot of what they do is directed by jealousy and envy of others and trying to chase after what other people have done. So a lot of times when you're dealing with a covert or vulnerable narcissist, they are trying to embody somebody else's life, they are trying to be like some personality on social media, they are trying to copy somebody else's lifestyle, instead of ever deciding anything on their own. So for themselves, they themselves are disconnected from any kind of real clear vision for themselves of what they independently want. They're constantly trying to step into somebody else's life. They're trying to do things the way that so and so does them and they're trying to dress like so and so and they're trying to raise her kids like some third other person. And they themselves again, tend to be very aimless and non directed in themselves as a narcissist, whether covert or overt, Narcissus tend to be self absorbed. And a lot of that self absorption and self centeredness typically comes out in at least several ways. One of the big ways that that comes out is emotional manipulation, they will do everything they can to manipulate others, to serve themselves to serve the things that they want. And whether it means they have to have these outlandish extreme emotional reactions if they have to have these explosions, if they have to threaten if they have to go worse if they have to use guilt or gaslighting. If they have to lie, cheat and steal, they'll do all those different things in order to emotionally manipulate those around them into compliance, to avoid criticism to get the things that they want. We know that that's what narcissists do. Another part of self absorption of course is going to be the empathy component or the lack of empathy component, or as the diagnostic manuals talk about it, the unwillingness to empathize and so they may know what the other person needs, they may have some appreciation for Oh, this other person is suffering. this other person has a legitimate complaint this other person needs a glass of water so to say or they need positive support, whatever have you and they will choose Not to empathize, they will decide not to do that behavior which would be compassionate or empathetic for the other person that is a major manifestation for people who are on the Narcissus scale, along the same lines of self absorption is when they put all of their needs and personal quests and quest for enlightenment and self healing and this and that discovery before anyone and everyone else. So you probably have seen these people who have been doing self healing for like a decade. They've been doing self care and self love, constantly, year after year, after year after year. And they are all about themselves. And they are all about their healing. And they are all about their trauma. And they are all about their quest and their journey. And it's been going on for years and years and years and years. And it monopolizes conversations, it's a justice obsession that they get into, it dominates how things function in the home, it dominates the relationships. If people don't align with what they want on this chronic self healing journey, then they will treat those other people very cruelly and start accusing them of being callous narcissists, and etc, etc, etc. A lot of that pattern of prolonged very self absorbed behavior, probably ties into covert and vulnerable narcissism behind the veneer is what I mentioned earlier is going to be this secret grandiosity. And so behind the the outward appearance of inferiority, behind the outward expressions of envy and chasing after others is this deep sense of they are just the most spiritual, gifted, wonderful, everything else person in the world, they are above any kind of reproach they are they are going to be meek and mild and self deprecating, but because they are so intensely spiritual and above others, and you start getting into this deep well within themselves, that they just think that they are so much better than others. And because of that, they start disengaging from all sorts of other people around them, and they are only going to surround themselves only with those people who are going to align completely with what their vision is for their own self absorbed quest, and then get rid of everybody else. So what do you do with somebody who's a covert narcissist, we've gone through some of these different traits. Well, you can study it come to a deep understanding of what covert narcissism is, you can also look up things like the vulnerable dark triad, which I think is very, very common, where covert or vulnerable narcissism tends to go along with some sort of factor two psychopathy, which tends to go along with borderline personality disorder. So you really have this cluster B thing going on, that is tied into borderline disorder. If you're dealing with somebody who is a covert or vulnerable narcissist, definitely make sure you're tracking patterns get a really good sense of what the behavioral patterns actually are to confirm for yourself that you're actually seeing what you're seeing and confirm with others, hey, I'm, I'm observing this, do you see this too, just to check in with yourself and make sure that you are clear on what you're observing. Now, of course, you can try to communicate with them, you can try to get them to go to treatment, you can try all this other stuff. But typically, if you are going to start trying to push on the other person to go and go get help, you're probably going to end up making things worse, they're going to receive that as criticism and they're going to push back at worse get angry, possibly get violent, it's, it's just not worth it. It's not a path to go down. Typically, such people are not receptive to any kind of encouragement to go and seek out therapy at all. And even if you are able to demonstrate the patterns to them or for them, they will find some way to make that all your fault, twisted, distorted and rejected, whatever have you. Probably the best path whenever you start catching on that you're dealing with somebody who has vulnerable narcissistic traits and is probably tied in with borderline personality disorder, is to start getting your exit strategy in line. And so make sure you have a good clear understanding of those patterns, confirm it to yourself. Recognize that such people Very rarely get the help that they need. And very rarely, even in those situations improve in any kind of quantitative or qualitative substantial way. And it's time for you to start making plans on getting out and stepping out, defining your boundaries, defining your rules and standards, so that you can keep this person's narcissistic behaviors and traits and influence as far away from you as you possibly can. A lot of times, that's really all that you can do, you cannot save or rescue or rehabilitate this other person, a lot of times, it will only make their symptoms worse, even if you try. And then all you're going to do is be, you know, hanging on to a drowning person and trying to save them and you're going to end up hurting yourself and getting drugged down into it as well. So it might be just awful to consider that the best remedy is to just get away from a person like that. But ultimately, that's typically the only decision worth making is to say, you know what, I have these other things that I want to create in life, I have experiences that I want to have in life, two that are going to be free of these emotional displays and manipulation and gaslighting. I don't want to be living my life, or spending my limited life having to deal with this day in and day out. This isn't something that's going to be viable in my present or in my future. So it's time to cut those losses, make those decisions, make the move, get yourself out, define your boundaries, and then pursue the life that you truly, truly do want. Because at the end of the day, when we deal with covert narcissist, or overt Narcissus, the thing that we focus on as the ones getting out of situations like that is what do we really want for ourselves, we have to clearly define, instead of vision for ourselves of the types of relationships, we do want the types of interpersonal experiences that we do want with others. And so we have to create a clear vision of scenes of connection, and love and support scenes where we are able to show compassion to ourselves and others, we may want to be able to have these deep, trusting relationships that are honoring other honoring and self honoring with others, we have to get this clear vision in our mind, and then set boundaries that help us to form and create and support those things that we most want to create. Then when we look back at the vulnerable narcissist in our lives, and we say, is that person aligned with these self honoring and other honoring relationships that I want to have? The answer is going to be no, almost universally, they never have been, they aren't, and they never will be because of how they operate. And so then we need to make sure that we're aligned with the things we want, we have our boundaries in place that say, No, I'm sorry. But, you know, if you're not coming up to this level of self and other honoring relationships, that's something that's going to be aligned with what, what's going to be viable, moving forward. And it's okay to just say, we need to, we need to stop this relationship. And these are going to be the terms of that relationship. Now, of course, if you're dealing with a person like this in a co parenting setting, a lot of times once you make that move and say these things are over, I'm going to start, you know, leading my life and you can go lead your life over there, they tend to act out, they can become very manipulative, they can become angry, they can lash out, they can do all these different things. And that's where it's important to make sure you have those boundaries in place to not get dragged back into the same dynamics just in two households instead of one. So that is covert narcissism. If you recognize those traits, again, track out those patterns, confirm it to yourself, come up with your exit strategy, get very clear on the vision of what you want to create for yourself in life in pursue that the things that bring you closer to the types of interpersonal relationships and compassion and love and connection that you do want in your life. Follow those things that lead you closer. Everything else have boundaries in place that say No, those things are not going to be part of my experience. And then don't get drug back into the Narcissus games.